You've earned it.
Denver!!!!!!
SHAME
...she's entitled to spend her money however she wants.
And if she is looking to 2012, (whether by Obama defeat or another primary with a sitting president...it does happen) well...that's 4 years from now.
Anything can happen in 4 years.
Mark Penn thanks you for the donation
That speech was so amazing. She should be our president.
I've got 119 million dollars in my personal account. I spend 11.4 of it on your dreams. I want it back, dammit. DONATE MORE!!
I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice that.
"So I hope you'll go to HillaryClinton.com and... give what you can." "But isn't the primary... over?" "Well yes but I'm sort of in the hole, here. Please help."
This is a trollish diary. Repugnant and has no place anywhere were Democrats convene. Brutally wrong, pigheaded, and divisive. Just utterly disgusting.
2012 will be the re-election campaign for President Obama, just as it would have been if Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Kucinich, Richardson, or any other Democrat won the nomination.
I want to puke.
Your insults make me want to do the same.
We have been hearing it was over for months. The Obama people keep acting like having the campaign is hurting the party and not good for theobvious nominee. We do not have a nominee, not even a presumptive one. You can't use supers to clinch it. She is supposed to stay til Denver.
What are they so afraid of that they just cannot stand to let the process complete?
Because it is over and if Senator Clinton does not take the opportunity to withdraw now, she will completely destroy her and her husband's legacy and become a villified figure on the order of Joe Lieberman.
It's over. I'm all for reconciliation, but not with those who continue a fight that is lost.
And I'm sure you were trashing Kennedy's endorsement of Obama for the same reasons right? He's divisive, he took the fight to the Convention, he destroyed his brother's and families legacy...blah, blah, blah.
That's all crap. The SD's don't even cast votes until the convention. Hillary hasn't indicated whether or not she will contest until the convention or take a fight to the credentials committee. But the hyperbole that by what was in her speech will destroy her and Bill's legacy is pure fallacy and is just an attempt to continue to demagogue and pound on the Clinton's.
The nomination is NOT wrapped up, because if it was I wouldn't be heading to our State Convention and being able to cast my vote for Hillary instead of Obama.
You can have your version of 'your' truth, but the facts are facts, and you can't change them. Should Clinton conceed then, all DEM's should even somewhat loosely coalese around the nominee. They don't have to canvass or call or even participate in the actual process...all they have to do is vote against John McCain and the other down-ticket Rep's come November.
Why would I trash Kennedy's endorsement of Obama? Because of a mistake he made 28 years ago?
The credentials committee meme is a canard. Florida and Michigan could be seated as is at full strength at this point and he would still have the requisite number of delegates.
You can keep telling yourself that the superdelegates are going to change their mind en masse, but it's not going to happen. He is the presumptive nominee.
Oh and I never suggested that her speech was what would damage her and her husband''s legacies. But taking the fight to the convention most certainly would.
It's money. Obama gets to tap his big donors twice: $2,300 for the primaries and $2,300 for the general election. Last month, the inexhaustible well started to dry up. They have $250 or $300 million that opens up once Hillary is shoved out.
Otherwise, Obama is very much better off letting things go on to ther convention. The Hillary-Pbama battle freezes McCain out of the front page and takes away his earned media on TV. Since he can't raise money, that's a crucial hit.
Look at the MYDD electoral vote calculations every day. McCain has been sliding down, not gaining, during the Democratic fight for the nomination.
Take the money out of the equation and Obama, Hillary, and the Democrats are much better off taking this to the convention.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SEEMS TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR VIEWPOINT:
Yes, he's not "officially" the nominee until the convention, but he is the "presumptive nominee", which means that barring some colossally unforeseen events, he WILL BE the nominee in August.
The superdelegates could defect to her. But they aren't. The only superdelegates switching sides are the ones who are moving from Hillary over to the PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE'S Campaign.
Howard Wolfson himself said that she will be endorsing Obama this weekend. What part of all of this aren't you getting?
THERE WILL BE NO CONVENTION FLOOR FIGHT.
It's OK to be upset that your candidate lost a hard fought and extremely close nominating contest. But please try to stay on planet Earth while you are lamenting this...
Whether you recognize it or not there has been something of a breakthrough tonight.
Clinton supporters are accepting that Clinton will not be the nominee. If they want to hope for a future run then that's fine. (I still hope for a future Howard Dean run, doesn't mean I live for that or will turn my back on a perfectly good dem or languish from disapointment if he never runs again)
Even if Obama wins, that doesn't entitle him to run unapposed for his second term. It's traditional but it's not a foregone conclusion.
So rather than bash someone for hoping, recognize that Obama has earned 4 years of (hopefully) a working presidency to change their minds and bring them onboard.
Troll rating me is bullshit, just like everything written in this "series." You can do it again here, but at least I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that I'm a true Democrat, a true Progressive, and not some kind of self-serving, tunnel-visioned, fundamentalist who can only see one outcome as acceptable.
If anyone agrees with me, mojo me to fend off the nonsense.
I would have worked to the death for Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee, but the voters have spoken according to the system we all ratified before this began. The outcome has also been ratified by the party as the superdelegates came out for unity. Claiming 2012 as the new target is scuttling the party and the presumptive nominee and I wish you'd go vote for McCain. You're no Democrat.
In fact, to troll or hide rate what I wrote is despotic, undemocratic, unAmerican, and the kind of bullshit that Clinton people boycotted Kos over. Glad to see that you've allowed yourself to be corrupted by the very thing you decried.
Mike, I'm an Obama supporter, and I want you to know why I troll-rated you.
Alegre has written some of the most slanted, unfair, intellectually dishonest diaries I've ever read. That said, this isn't one of them. This diary is an impassioned expression of support for a candidate. I disagree with the call to action, but it isn't trollish. This diary doesn't attack Barack Obama, doesn't spew false facts, and is totally acceptable under MyDD rules.
There are multiple levels of contention that a diary can fall into. Advocating the losing candidate, even if her continued campaigning may be detrimental to the nominee, is not trolling. It isn't purposed towards divisiveness either. Alegre is acting based on convictions to support a woman with strong democratic ideals and credentials. Her goal is not to undercut Barack; it is to uplift Hillary.
It's very easy to let Alegre's previous posts color your responses to her, but the content of this post does not warrant the vitriol you've shown here. You came to this diary ready for a fight, and understandably so. It's best that we stop fighting altogether, but at the very least, don't create a perceived slight where there is none. Play defense, not offense. We're on the same team, so unless your teammate steps out of line, don't throw elbows.
Well said Penguin.
I'm sorry penguin, you're off base. Troll rating and hide rating are tools designed to fend off people with an agenda to distract, destroy, or disrupt. The tone of my comments may be harsh, but hardly something intended by the forum administration to be troll or hide rated.
Who is more worthy of a troll rating in a Democratic forum, the person who subtly suggests that the new goalpost is 2012, or the person calling them on it?
Make no mistake, anyone with 2012 on their mind on a night when Barack Obama is names the presumptive nominee is hoping for McCain to win. Why else would a Democrat look to that date with anticipation? A contested nomination of a sitting president is civil war. In either case, to pick this night to engage in that kind of Rovian nonsense, is horsesh*t.
So, troll or hide rating me for calling out that sentiment (and never Alegre by name) is abuse of the worst kind. It's exactly what prompted Clinton people to abandon Kos for MyDD. If anyone has 2012 on their mind with respect to Hillary Clinton on this night, they should probably just leave the Democratic Party and start some kind of 3rd party. This is a night for Democrats to be behind the nominee, and I would have said that if the nominee had been any one of the people who bravely stood up to seek the nomination of the party.
Someday this 2012-noquarter-hillaryis44 agenda will be outed for what it is, the biggest cult of personality in the modern history of American politics. Obama is the one with all the criticism of messianic followings, cultish supporters, and so on. What of Clinton? Surely this diary illustrates that whatever has been said ill of the Obama movement can equally be said of the Clinton movement. I will continue to call out anyone who seeks to scuttle the party for a cult of personality. Troll and hide rate away.
I am with you, Alegre killed the momentum towards unity tonite.
Please ignore her and look at other diaries.
With the phrase "We can't wait until 2012 Hillary. We need you to keep fighting for us now. If you're up for the fight then so are millions of your supporters all over America." she has lost all relevance tonite.
This is my last comment in this diary as it is not one that supports Democrats winning elections.
Well Mike, two things:
First, she's not looking to 2012. She's saying that she and others don't want to wait for Hillary to run again. She chose 2012 because she doesn't think Obama will win. I think this is a needless buzzkill for people like me who are riding incredibly high on the most exciting candidate to come out of the party since JFK, but based on everything she's said and written, its her genuine belief. The sentiment is pretty clearly, "We can't wait for you to run later, we need you now," not, "If you don't run now, here's hoping Obama loses and you get your next shot sooner rather than later." It's still, in my opinion, a needlessly pessimistic view, but I think it does nothing more than color the phrasing of a fair, if disagreed with sentiment ("Hillary now, not later").
Second, you're right about the ratings. The ratings are not a place to express myself; that's the comments. The ratings are a place to report abuse, and while I believe you've been hypersensitive, your reactions aren't abuse.
Thanks for engaging me, Mike. I love these communities because of people like you who are willing to dissect their motivations and the motivations of others. I hope Senator Clinton suspends her campaign soon for the sake of the party; the potential benefits to her are so unlikely and the definite costs to the nominee are so great. When that happens, I hope Alegre, Texasdarlin, and the rest of Hillary's most ardent supporters will prove their democratic metel by supporting Obama. I guess we'll find out who's on what team soon enough. In the meantime, I'm glad you're on mine. The people in this party make me as proud as the platform does.
PS. I've fixed my ratings for you. Just please do try not to throw gasoline on a fire. Even if its intentional, these diaries are just a match. Comments and attention are the fuel that makes them incendiary.
I agree on all points. My issue was with you labeling the diary as trollish. Counter-productive? Absolutely. Short-sighted? Incredibly. Foolish and incorrect? Very likely.
But trollish? Intended to damage Democratic causes or persons? Crafted to bait outrage? I think not.
My problem is not that you have a problem with Alegre; I do too. I don't mind that you have a problem with this specific diary either; I think its foolish and counterproductive. Nonetheless, your vitriol and choice of words should be reserved for diaries that are truly trollish. I understand wanting ideas and viewpoints which damage Democratic prospects to just go away quickly and therefore opposing them voraciously, but the fact is that this is well within the scope of progressive dialogue, and the attempt to squelch parts of that dialogue that threaten our electoral success, while tempting considering all of our near-losses, is simply not part of the netroots community, and it is that sort of idea intolerance that led to the rift we're now trying to heal.
Call it out as wrong. Call it out as dumb. Call it out as a waste of democratic energy. But don't call an honest opinion delivered without venom trolling.
With all good intentions towards you penguin, tell that to my kids. Tell them why bitter and divisive people split the party and got yet another right winger elected. Tell them why this kind of nonsense is rec'ed to the top of the list at a Democratic forum every time it's posted and gets ample enough airtime that it find legitimacy.
It's not Democratic. It's not Progressive. It's single-minded, tunnel vision with the intent to deliver for one candidate at the expense of all else. How in the world can we call this NetRoots. It spits in the face of everything that Jerome and Kos wrote about in the "This Ain't No Party" chapter of "Crashing the Gates."
I don't engage Alegre or many of the others with similar reasoning here at MyDD for the simple reason that their candidate was running in contested elections. I disagreed with them and found much of their writing awful. Tonight is a very different story. The implication that Obama won't win and that Hillary will carry the mantle in 2012 serves no NetRoots purpose other than to drive people away from the person who was named the presumptive nominee. It's designed to create the impression that we've put the party in danger.
What really puts the party in danger is sentiment like this that suggests we're going to lose. There's nothing about this dialog that contributed to the election of a Democrat to the highest office. Nothing. It is driven by a cult of personality movement that discredits everything that Hillary Clinton has worked for as a Democrat. It places her above the party on the night when the party has loudly spoken to the world about who will be carrying our banner into battle. I can't stomach that.
shrug Agreed. It's still not trolling.
Mike, I was gonna tell you why I, an Obama supporter, troll rated you. But, someone already took the words from my mouth.
You're not wrong mike. The ratings abuse that happens here is unbelievable.
He did.
"2012 will be the re-election campaign for President Obama, just as it would have been if Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Kucinich, Richardson, or any other Democrat won the nomination."
Absolutely. And anyone who says otherwise I would conclude doesn't have the best interests of the Democratic party, or the country, at heart.
why you wouldn't support the Democratic nominee?
It makes sense now.
she knows her war voted makes it impossible to be veep, cuz we'd have to give up that that line of attackt (ie McSame voted for the quagmire).
it's all about setting up 2012 run against a 76 year old mcSame.
Are you kidding me? Thousands of dead iraqis, iranians, and american soldiers are glad its all about hills v macsame in 2012. Pathetic!
she voted for the war.
she still refuses to say her vote was a mistake.
chomp on that.
Beating McCain was never her priority; electing Hillary was. As Obama became more of an obstacle, the priority remained electing Hillary, but also shifted to defeating Obama. Now Clinton's chances have been reduced to zero, the only objective left is to undermine Obama.
This was never about McCain.
I dont believe the diarist cares about beating McCain.
She practically endorsed him tonight.
to deal with it and grieve. Hillary herself hasn't even conceded yet.
Attacking this diarist for not "focusing on beating Mccain" right now, is highly insensitive. It reminds me of when my friend's partner died and his mom called him the very next day and said "you can't just mope around for the rest of your life!"
People became very emotionally invested in their candidate. Give people a chance to deal with it- they'll come back to the overall good of the party when they are ready.
was very complimentary toward Barack Obama tonight. Moreover, she's made it clear 100% of the times she's been asked, with great enthusiasm, and without a moment's hesitation (unlike Michelle Obama and that's a fact and not a dig at Michelle) that she would support Barack Obama with all her heart and soul if she is officially not the nominee.
So, why are you reading Alegre's words, and attacking Hillary Clinton?
I'm sorry, when did Hillary Clinton refer to Barack Obama in her speech?
This is from this very diary that you are commenting in:
I want to start tonight by congratulating Senator Obama and his supporters on the extraordinary race that they have run. Senator Obama has inspired so many Americans to care about politics and empowered so many more to get involved, and our party and our democracy is stronger and more vibrant as a result. So, we are grateful, and it has been an honor to contest these primaries with him, just as it is an honor to call him my friend. And tonight, I would like all of us to take a moment to recognize him and his supporters for all they have accomplished.
Gee, what a classless bitch who is destroying the party, and just couldn't bother to praise her opponent. /snark
It was a great speech! Moving, and right on point.
My favorite line was how she was standing up for the 18 million people who voted for her.
She's not standing up for them if her actions hurt the Democratic party.
It was a rather ungracious speech. She couldn't even acknowledge Obama's win, aside from the boilerplate recognition of his running a strong race.
I'm not saying she had to throw in the towel and tell her supporters to shut off the lights before they left. But her speech was defiant verging on disrespectful, as if we've got another month of primaries to go. She keeps demanding respect and deference, but it would help if she returned the favor.
...not to mention she's still making her electability argument, including the standard false "popular vote lead" claim, to no one in particular. She's making a case to non-existent superdelegates.
I mean, there's really no way for her to give a speech that talks about the issues she cares about, goes after republicans, and rallies her supporters without putting down Obama or implying there's still somewhere to go with this race??
uprated for ratings abuse
Why on earth would she take it to the credentials committee? Even if she got ALL the votes from MI and FL and got full seating of the delegates, she still doesn't have enough delegates to win?
What exactly would taking it to the credentials committee do?
It has to be pledged to clinch the nomination before convention unless you can drive out the competition. AOL got the headline right tonight:
"OBAMA DECLARES HIMSELF NOMINEE!"
He has not won. He has a lot of promises of votes but there isn't even a list in the press of who he is counting!
This afternoon did you here the names of supers for Obama who changed over to Hillary? Did you even hear the names of the ones who are supposed wot have voted for mim? On CNN they panted through their coun tdown of" 6 more needed. wwe have another one! Now five more needed"! Obama was not even giving them the names! They just swallowed it all.
What happened to the rules? Donna didn't help with that,duh.
What Hillary says and knows is that neither of them clinched it. All that happened is that the Primary Season came to an end! With no winner, it goes to the convention, usually. She could stop it if she concedes. Otherwise is is work this summer to gather the suppers for the vote in Denver. Watch the Republicans go after Obam. Do some stirring up of support for the Psrty and getting voters registered and thinking about the fall. After the convention, if she has lost, she works on party unity. If he has lost, he does it.
Hillary also needs some time this summer to interview and consider Vice Presidential candidates so that when the vote finally happens in August, people understand the slates.
And we have to clean up from Saturday's massacre of democratic values.
This "assumption" that her staying would be wierd, disruptive or hurtful is not appropropriate and certainly not according to the rules
No.
He has won. That is all. No 'suppers' for Denver. No Vice Presidential considerations. Her staying would be wierd, disruptive, and hurtful. He clinched it. Let it go.
Stop making things up. Pledged delegates are no different than Supers. It is just a promise to vote, they are not bound. The pledge of a super is just as valid. He is the nominee. It's time to accept that.
Where did I see the list of supers? you think CNN, etc. didn't have names? Then how did they keep announcing who they are?
Are you kidding me? I saw them all the places they are published.
Best place to look: http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/
How shameful of her. How high can she raise her head now?!
Not very classy in defeat. She has earned further scorn on this monumental and historic night.
More like a polished turd.
Last night was a great night for Hillary Clinton to congratulate Obama for his success. Instead she decided to go with more of the same.
If she were truly interested in unity, she would stop holding this party hostage.
If you were truly interested in unity and what is best for the party, you would stop positioning for 2012 and focus on the upcoming general election.
Hillary seems determined not to leave on a positive or high note. She is determined to be as divisive as possible. And that is why she lost.
You were a passionate advocate for Senator Clinton in environments that were very difficult. You have have endured many personal attacks and insults and you stayed the course. It was not easy, but you gave all you had to help Hillary in any way you could. You should be proud of your effort.
Take care, alegre.
If Obama can't beat McCain, it will be in great part because the Democratic Party could not come together. And how could that happen? I can't figure it out. Any way you slice it, the choice is crystal clear. Obama and Clinton are so similar on so many of the important issues that we care about, and they stand in stark contrast with the policies of John McCain.
The primary is over, we have our nominee. It's time to come together to fight for the ideals that we hold so dear. It's time to come together to improve the lives of all Americans. It's time to come together, period.
